Episode 11

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Published on:

29th May 2024

Why We Buy: The Relationship Between Our Mental State And Our Consumption Habits

Women, Fashion, and Consumerism: Part 2

In the second episode of this three-part series, we delve into the complex relationship between our mental state and our consumption habits, exploring the influence of social media marketing, the emotional triggers behind impulsive shopping, and the pervasive impact of fast fashion on consumer behaviour.

Tune in for practical strategies to combat unsustainable buying practices, with an emphasis on the need for self-reflection, mindful consumption, and wardrobe satisfaction.

Guests:

Mentioned in this episode:

About the show:

This is Reloved Radio: Sustainable Fashion Stories, the fortnightly show that brings you inspiring stories from guests who are making a positive impact in the sustainable fashion space.

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Credits:

Music: 'Old Leather Sneakers' by PineAppleMusic

Transcript
Chryssius:

Hey, Relovers.

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Welcome back to our conversation

about women, fashion and consumerism.

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If you're just joining us, I'm

Chryssius Dunn, your host, and this

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is part two of our three part series.

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If you haven't had a chance yet we highly

recommend going back and listening to part

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one, where we talked about the challenges

of consumption habits and the impact of

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fast fashion on women and the environment.

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It's pretty much the foundation

for today's conversation.

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So definitely go and check that one out.

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Today, we're talking about why we buy and

looking at the relationship between our

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mental state and our consumption habits.

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Before we jump in let's quickly

re-introduce our panelists: gentle coach

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Vive Oldham, money coach Jacinta Ebsworth,

slow fashion advocate, Charlie Smith, and

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sustainable fashion expert Hazel Law.

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I want to start today's conversation

with social media marketing,

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because it plays such a pivotal

role in the fast fashion industry.

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And it's something that we're all

bombarded with pretty much 24/7.

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I'd love to hear from you, Charlie,

particularly on social media and the

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convenience of one-click shopping.

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Charlie: So I think the biggest one is

that these fast fashion houses are being

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involved in events such as Coachella,

Splendor in the Grass and all of these

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like big events that already are so

good at making you have that sense of

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FOMO that immediately now, the way that

they do it with that one click thing is

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they'll go one click for the Coachella

edit, one click for the Splendor in

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the Grass edit, so immediately, these

fast fashion brands were capitalising

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on that, And the need for when you go

into these events to consume a large

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amount of products just to make a choice

of one outfit you were going to wear.

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I don't know if you've ever seen

the videos of girls when they're

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like, I'm trying on all my options

for groove and the Moo and they

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would have like 10 outfits.

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And all the outfits still had their

tags on them, and they were all

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from these big fast fashion houses.

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And it wasn't like they were just

already in their wardrobe, and they're

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saying okay, I'm gonna shop within

my wardrobe and find something.

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They're going, oh, and it's not

for two weeks, so if you want

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any of these outfits, click

the link and click that now.

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And immediately it's there, and that these

fast fashion houses are so beautiful.

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Smart at being able to see what's going

on in their audience's sphere, whether

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there's events coming up, seasonal

changes, , any kind of opportunity

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to give people that quick turnover.

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If you type in bridesmaid dress.

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On any of these fast fashion brand

outlets, I guarantee there will be

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some sort of like a sale dress that

you can get and they'll offer you that

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express shipping that you can get so

it's at your door in two days time.

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And it's so accessible that it's like

how, how is any sort of ethical and local

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brands supposed to compete with that?

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Like really because at the end of the day

if if say I have an event that has come

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up For Wednesday, I actually I do have

an event on Wednesday If I wasn't someone

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who already shopped within my wardrobe and

you know shop sustainably I'm actually at

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the moment doing a no buy freeze as well.

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I could easily jump on to one of those big

fast fashion houses and pick two different

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things to order Order it to my house and

have them here tomorrow afternoon and

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anything I didn't like, I could send back.

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And that's also the problem.

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You can just send back things

you don't want and get a refund.

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Chryssius: It really is so easy.

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Too easy.

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Hazel, tell us how these kinds

of marketing leads to and

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sustainable shopping habits.

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Hazel: It really comes down to it

unsustainable consumption is born

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from the position of wanting to

really fit in and be part of something

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that's bigger than ourselves.

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So the way that plays out in our

kind of secular societies nowadays

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is it shows up in over consumption.

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It's what we might have outsourced to

religion or spirituality or that kind of

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like inner work in previous generations.

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It's now the go to consume,

like we were saying last week.

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And there's this amazing podcast

by Amanda Lee McCarty called

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the Clothes Horse Podcast.

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And she, in her words, she

says that fashion thrives on

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the feeling of being left out.

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So everything that fashion marketing

is, social media, fashion marketing,

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and the two are inextricably

linked at this point in our lives.

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They use all of these strategies

to make us feel less than.

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So that's the comparison piece,

competition, exclusion, inequality

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financial instability, and then

preying on our self esteem.

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So all of those things, really, lead to

make us feel "othered" and "less than".

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And once we're feeling less than

and othered, we want to buy more.

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So as long as they're continuing to make

us feel unworthy, we'll keep buying.

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And luckily for capitalism, we can.

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Because capitalism and the fast fashion

model is built on this infinite growth.

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It's why companies can or can

quote unquote can lose money.

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When they are creating ultra fast fashion.

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You like stuff like purchasing

way too many units of each garment

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to get the lowest price possible.

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A lot of the units that are actually

made of the clothes that we buy are then

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destroyed or sent to landfill because

they're, they were never really bought.

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There were always too many to be

sold but it was so that company could

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get that bottom line figure from the

the, the factory that they're using

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But the company's book looks like it

makes a profit, like the boards and

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the stakeholders are happy with that.

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But it's, the world isn't

created for infinite growth.

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The planet is not created

for infinite growth.

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It's not, it only works if

the only thing that we want to

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have is the profit of money.

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And obviously that's not working for us.

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Yeah, so I've got a few

more things to say on that.

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But yeah, so basically, people, the

people making our clothes and the

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people that are consuming the clothes

are not happy because essentially what

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is being created is future rubbish.

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Like, they are creating clothing

that we are consuming at an

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absolutely ridiculous rate.

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Ridiculous rate that actually has,

obsolescence built into those pieces.

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So it's built to break down.

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It's built to, it's built not to last

which only leaves us in a position

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where we feel like we have to buy more

because we have such a low consumer

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cost that actually those pieces don't

feel like it doesn't feel profitable

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or financially sensible for us to

alter them or to get them repaired

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because they were so cheap to buy.

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And yeah, just going back to the

question, the kind of unsustainable

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consumption habits, we're really we're

really at the whim of social media,

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I would say like there's more than 3.

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5 billion people that use these free

quote unquote free Meta platforms

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such as Facebook or Instagram.

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But like if we don't pay for the

product, we are the product and what

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is being mined from us using these

social media platforms is our data.

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And that data goes to these companies

and it's overwhelmingly fast fashion.

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Websites or like websites like Vogue

that have these tracking systems on there

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that then will like track us across the

internet, what we look at, how long we

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look at it, how what we're looking at

before we start to buy stuff so that they

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can actually push those things on us.

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And like we live in a world where

we don't have a gap between.

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and purchasing anymore.

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So I've been reading "Good

With Money" by Emma Edwards.

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And she says that because buying has

become so easy for us, we just don't

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have any time to debate with ourselves

if we really need something, or we're

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just experiencing this fleeting desire.

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So we're going, on social media, we can

go from seeing, swiping, purchasing,

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and moving on within a matter of

minutes without, you know, even a

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second thought, which is what creates

this mindless consumption and more

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mindless consumption than ever before.

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And therefore more over

consumption than ever before.

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Chryssius: And it's not

even a matter really.

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Hazel: Seconds.

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Yeah.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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Chryssius: If have your details saved

into your phone, it's literally three

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taps and you've purchased something.

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And it's just, it's that instant

gratification like it is actually instant.

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Vive: so impulsive.

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I was thinking as you were talking,

Hazel, I've seen a few people do

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this in the online course space,

where they actually encourage people

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to slow down before purchasing.

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And I deeply respect it.

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I'm like, thank you for

bringing that to my attention.

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And so that you're not

just buying on impulse.

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like in the terms and conditions where

it says we encourage you to slow down

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and to consider if this is the right

thing for you before you purchase.

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So it's nice to know that while some

aspect of culture is funneling us into

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the impulse to buy, there are people out

there who are recognising, who are being

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counter culture and saying Hey, slow down.

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It's just not in fashion yet.

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Hazel: But what's interesting in that,

Vive, is that from fashion, like in

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fashion and fashion history, there is

always the anti fashion, there has to be.

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And it's what happens behind the scenes

when something is so strongly in the

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kind of forefront of what we're seeing,

like, whether it's on the catwalks

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or whether it's the counterculture is

what's happening behind the scenes.

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And that is what reacts

to the mainstream culture.

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And it always happens.

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I think that is what's so important

because without that kind of like pull

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and shove, that's not the right term,

but you know, without that, like give and

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take, there is just one homogenized world.

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And that's not, what we

can't live like that.

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Chryssius: And what are some of

those tricks that the fast fashion

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brands use to make us feel that sense

of urgency and the fear of missing

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out or "FOMO" when we're shopping?

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Charlie: So I would say the tricks

that they use is everything is really

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immediate all the sales I've tend

to notice that on the websites they

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tend to be like a countdown timer

Have you ever seen that on websites

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how it's like the countdown timer.

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to when the sale ends?

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But have you ever noticed that the

next day the sales back on and it's

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another 48 hours, but it's an even

bigger sale this time to the point

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where I'm starting to think the

original price never actually occurs.

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If that makes sense.

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Like they're just,

everything's always on sale.

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And that timer is like immediately

planting that urgency in your brain

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that you need to buy now and you need

to make that choice now instead of

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thinking about it and thinking about

the consumption and thinking about

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whether you actually need that piece

or whether you like it or whether you

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want to look, you know, is it on your

Pinterest board of things that you'll,

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you know, been wanting to buy for a while.

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Like they've got that timer and you're

going, the bomb's about to go off.

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I'm about to miss out.

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I'm about to have that fear.

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FOMO of that insane sale, or even now

noticing that brands are doing it when

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they're launching, there's like such a big

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countdown, kind of like

literally a representation of

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numbers is immediately there.

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So it's going, here's the

problem in marketing 101.

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Here's the solution to solve it.

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But instead of just solving it

in general, you have to solve it

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by the end of the 48 hour sale.

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And a lot of the time what they also do

is as someone who's been on the other

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side of it when you are involved in

influencer campaigns is often you're

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told to post while the countdown's on.

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So post this weekend.

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And the best one is you used to get

told to be to post your discount code.

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Within like a 12 hours of the sale ending.

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So it was that urgency that you are

then putting onto people and go,

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well, you've only got 12 hours left.

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If you want this jacket I'm

wearing, it's 70 percent off.

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You don't even realize that

you're being manipulated.

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And then from there, you're manipulating

others into having that FOMO as well.

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Hazel: Yeah.

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So I'd say that fast fashion marketing

basically lives breathes and uh, expands

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on the idea of scarcity and exclusivity.

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So basically, the scarcity piece

is so dangerous because they are

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encouraging us to always buy now.

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And we were talking about and

they've, like, they've doubled their

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profits to two billion dollars.

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billion US dollars.

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And so that figure alone from that one

company tells us that clearly there isn't

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a shortage of items, like there are items

everywhere, but the illusion that they

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are selling us is that there is a scarcity

of either the piece that we so it

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kind of sells us the idea in a few ways.

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And it also creates a state of this

cognitive dissidence, because even when

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we've seen the images of the tons and

tons and tons of fabric and clothing

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in landfill, we still somehow buy into

the fact that this one piece that we

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need is, you know, not ever going to

be available again, or from anywhere

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else, secondhand, or, you know, that

the cyclical trends that we know will

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roll around, we feel in that moment.

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Vive: Is that also like if someone was to

run a limited edition series of things?

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Hazel: Yeah.

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So I was actually going to say, so

Zara are like number two, say in the

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like traditional fast fashion, right?

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So we've got ultra fast

fashion now and fast fashion.

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So and the way that they do that,

or one of the really clever ways

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that they do that is they only keep a

very small amount of stock in store.

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So when you go in, you think, Oh,

there's only like six of these tops or

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10 of these tops, they look amazing.

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Like I have to buy it now because

they're not going to be, they're

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going to run out, but all it is is

behind the scenes, they're just like.

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Constantly airshipping these clothes

from all over the world to this one spot,

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this one airstrip, where I think it's

in Turkey, but don't quote me on that.

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And then they ship out, very, very

small batches to all of their stores

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to create this illusion in store that

there's a scarcity of their clothing.

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Like, but it's all an illusion.

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Like, it's just very clever,

very evil marketing, really.

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they kind of sell us that

in a few different ways.

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So like trends, obviously like trends

are, pretty much just there to convince

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us that we need to be on trend.

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and it's a really good way of getting

us to dispose of clothes that are

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perfectly good to replace them

with clothes that are just as good.

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Like, it's just a trick.

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Like it's a trap really.

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And we've also been conditioned

to believe that old is bad.

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Okay.

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and, and that's kind of

in more ways than one.

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So, Like, telling a woman that she's,

like, if she's wearing, say, skinny

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leg jeans, that's, like, dating her.

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That's telling everyone how old she is.

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That's telling everyone, that she's

a millennial and that she needs to

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basically, like, move with the times.

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So, That's gonna motivate

someone, a woman.

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more to buy something on trend

because we don't want to appear to

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be old because we've been fed this

like lie that aging is a bad thing

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rather than the privilege that it is.

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Vive: Yeah.

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Chryssius: We can all probably

relate to using shopping as

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therapy, at some stage in our lives.

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Why do we do that?

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What emotions are driving those

impulsive shopping behaviors?

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Charlie: Okay, I Want to say it's that

inner perfectionist that most of the

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time people are going to these online

shopping platforms for comfort.

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Feeling textures and having that sensory

experience with garments in person can

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often be like a self soothing behavior.

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I mean we see it in children, but

we also do see it in ourselves.

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Like wearing, when you feel sick

you put on comfortable clothes,

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you put on a comfortable fluffy

jumper and fluffy track suit pants.

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If you're feeling emotionally vulnerable

it's not a surprise that you reach for.

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garments that feel nice in your hands.

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I mean, if you look at the clothing

you reach for when you're unwell or

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not feeling very well emotionally,

it's very different to when you're

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feeling anguish or feeling upset.

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Like it's very different and I think

that mostly with online, people reach

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for it for that comfort and feel that

sense of fulfillment and that little

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bit of emptiness it can, you know, be.

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when we're feeling the comparison

between ourselves and the life

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that we want or the comparison of

where we are now versus where we

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used to be or where we want to be.

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And immediately it's that feeling of

inadequacy that we tend to have in

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ourselves and that relationship to

self that we tend to go and seek out in

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these online platforms, clothing stores,

that we're not meeting our own needs

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or our needs aren't being met, so we

go and find something else to fill it.

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Vive: There's a sense of

satisfaction from taking action.

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So when we purchase if we're feeling

like, we're a bit, say, overwhelmed,

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out of control not making progress.

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There's also a sense of being able to take

action and do something rather than being

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with whatever feelings we're experiencing.

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So it's this slippery slide into

not only getting that dopamine hit

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from thinking about the purchase and

actually making the purchase, but this

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sense of actually doing something.

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So they're sort of feeding into

that to feel like I'm doing,

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I'm achieving, like I'm making progress.

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I'm not feeling good in my body, well,

at least I'm doing something about it.

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And then, that's an easier

thing to do than sit with the

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discomfort of why am I needing that?

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Why am I feeling like I need that?

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I mean, that's a hard question to be with.

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Charlie: Absolutely.

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Well, at the end of the day, part of

the human condition is craving control.

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We're always seeking

things that we can control.

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And one thing that we often

have the most control of is the

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way that we dress ourselves.

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, and then stepping further into that, how

we consume before we dress ourselves.

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So when we don't feel a sense of

control in our lives, of course,

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we're going to turn to a shop where

we can pick how we dress our body.

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And if we feel a sense of stress

and we feel as though everything

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else in our sphere is out of

control, well, what can we control?

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We can control the clothes

we put on our body.

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So let's go spend some money, or

you even notice when people can't

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control things, they eat more.

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So they control what they're eating.

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putting in their body or they eat

less, but that's not for this.

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That's not for this conversation.

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Uh, I am not a psychologist, so

that's not for me to comment on.

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Uh, but there's so many aspects

of our lives that we crave

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and we crave that control.

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And actually, I've got a book on this.

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It's called everything

is fucked and I love it.

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And it's a book about hope.

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And one of the things that he talks

about is the paradox of progress and that

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right now, the place that we're in, in

the space, in this world, we're actually

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in one of the best times to be alive,

because, which, you know, it sounds

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pretty crazy thinking of it, because we

have all the medical advancements we've

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ever need for everything to go well.

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We have technological advances that

get better and better each day.

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We are better at communicating.

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Our education is getting

better and better.

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We're in one of the times that we

have the most rights as a "female"...

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on paper, on paper.

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I'm going to preface that with, but

what the paradox of progress is, is

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that with all of that, we're actually

in a time where most people feel the

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most lonely and most depressed that

they've ever felt in their life.

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And realistically what we are doing

from that is we're now craving more

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and more self control and we're craving

a control on our environments and our

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spheres which we don't regularly have

because everything is just progressing

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faster than we can keep up with.

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We have these two parts of our brains.

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We have the logical brain and

we have the emotional brain.

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And with that, when our emotional

brain is craving something, our

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logical brain steps in with a

solution and steps in with a comfort.

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And I think at this day and

age and in this society.

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One of the main things that we do,

and especially as women we tend to do,

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is we tend to go to clothing stores

or online stores and occupy ourselves

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with things and possessions and objects

to cure that lack of self control

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and lack of hope in our own world.

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Vive: And moving towards

an aspirational identity.

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Hazel: And an unachievable

aspirational identity.

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Like it's, always going to be elusive.

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It's never going to be,

"Oh, this is it now."

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Chryssius: But it comes back

to the dream, doesn't it?

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It comes back to the dream

that they're selling us.

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:

Hazel: Yeah, absolutely.

357

:

And the illusions that the

whole industry is built upon.

358

:

Um, Yeah, this is crazy.

359

:

Chryssius: What about from a

financial viewpoint, Jacinta, how

360

:

do you think that social media is

driving this impulsive spending?

361

:

Jacinta: Speaking to what Hazel

said people need to understand,

362

:

like it was a quote from the

documentary, the social dilemma.

363

:

And if it is, if you're not paying for

the product, which is using the platform,

364

:

like Instagram, you are the product

and for people to understand that.

365

:

So it's so accessible to us

because it's at your fingertips.

366

:

And I think from a deep understanding

about marketing, they personalize

367

:

the marketing messages to you.

368

:

Like they're tailored specifically

to the individual in their algorithm.

369

:

So they know in, in quote bracket, What

you're looking for from your search

370

:

history, your activity, what's trending,

what messages they pick up on your phone.

371

:

Like they tailor the message to you.

372

:

So it can seem for some people

like destiny air quotes.

373

:

If you see the outfit you want.

374

:

And you keep seeing it everywhere though.

375

:

Like you see it on different

platforms, and the ads running in

376

:

your email, on your social media

and it's like it's haunting you.

377

:

So you're like, Oh, that's

what I was looking for.

378

:

How did it know, but it's It's

perfectly designed to work this way.

379

:

And it said that social media provides

people with like an ideal opportunity to

380

:

compare themselves with others online.

381

:

So the other rise that I've seen in the 10

years, cause I got into social media like

382

:

the food pics and like when I was living

overseas and I would like review places

383

:

and post pictures, but what didn't exist

then that is now is the influencer impact.

384

:

So influences.

385

:

encourage people to into

their consumer behavior.

386

:

Like they do these brand hauls and

what I'd wear to, and they get you

387

:

to survey, like, I've got a wedding

coming up and they just have 10

388

:

or more dresses to just try on.

389

:

is crazy, but it's like, kind of makes

it into it, like you're there with

390

:

your friend trying on clothes, like

in a change room, and then they'll

391

:

post links to where they got things

and it's just very encouraging.

392

:

personable, but it's obviously

on like a global scale.

393

:

And that's definitely something that

people just need to understand, like,

394

:

it's not magic, it's marketing and

the algorithm is dictated by you.

395

:

So in terms of that, like you have tools

to utilize, like you can block pages,

396

:

you can block keywords so they don't

come up in your feed, like you can

397

:

curate your feed sort of better align

with your goals and what you want, like

398

:

if you want to cut down on spending.

399

:

Or seeing certain things, like you can

block ads, you can turn off suggested

400

:

posts, but , you have to sort of be

proactive in you want to approach using

401

:

media for yourself if you need, like,

limitations on, impulsive spending.

402

:

Vive: think it comes down to that first

point of call, like you say Jacinta,

403

:

that the first thing is how am I

myself, like with social media period.

404

:

Jacinta: Yeah.

405

:

Like what am I going in here for?

406

:

Vive: yeah,

407

:

Jacinta: Yeah, because I constantly delete

the app from my phone when I'm like it's

408

:

a bit too much on the reels, young lady.

409

:

And it's wild like how different you feel.

410

:

Not, like I go to my phone and I'm

like, oh there's nothing to look at.

411

:

Close it.

412

:

Like,

413

:

I,

414

:

you,

415

:

Chryssius: it up.

416

:

Vive: I find,

417

:

Jacinta: Checking the bank

account that hasn't moved.

418

:

Yeah.

419

:

Vive: that it's, it's that impulsivity for

even just pressing the screen of the phone

420

:

that dopamine hit of like, Oh, there's a

message or like you say, checking the bank

421

:

account or checking the it's so habitual.

422

:

Email checking the social media, checking

423

:

Jacinta: to check.

424

:

Yeah.

425

:

Yeah.

426

:

Vive: Sorry that I don't have the

actual book name, but it was talking

427

:

about the fact that you're even you're

already getting the dopamine hit.

428

:

As soon as you decide I'm to get onto

social media, you're already receiving a

429

:

dopamine hit before you even get onto it.

430

:

If I decide I'm going to eat a chocolate

bar, you're actually already getting

431

:

a dopamine hit before you eat the

432

:

Hazel: Yes, if the dopamine

is around the desire.

433

:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

434

:

Vive: Yeah.

435

:

And we're seeking out this kind of

this fashion and we're seek, we're

436

:

sort of encouraged to be seeking

it out constantly externally.

437

:

Like everything externally, I

can't create that for myself

438

:

within the wardrobe that I have.

439

:

There's a sense somehow in the Western

culture that we're all living in...

440

:

That we get that from

outside of ourselves.

441

:

There's no one saying go inward and

explore what you already have, hazel.

442

:

Hazel: It's me.

443

:

No, but you're absolutely right.

444

:

It's like we're outsourcing our

sense of identity because that's

445

:

essentially what clothes are, , because

they're so closely linked to our,

446

:

you know, they're our second skin.

447

:

They are how we portray

ourselves in the world.

448

:

And we are outsourcing our own

identity to fashion marketing.

449

:

Vive: that's a part of a bigger

picture, a bigger conversation of

450

:

outsourcing our own wisdom to experts.

451

:

Hazel: Yeah, absolutely.

452

:

And I think, , it's interesting

what you were saying about social

453

:

media and the dopamine hit because

I notice it myself when I'm having a

454

:

particularly tough time with my children.

455

:

Like if I'm having a day where

everyone is just screaming, I'll

456

:

just look at my phone somewhere.

457

:

I just need some like

mental peace you guys.

458

:

And like, it's not

offering me anything else.

459

:

Other than, really, more screaming,

because they're gonna be upset that I'm

460

:

not paying them 100 percent attention.

461

:

But I'm like, I just, I get into that

habitual space where I'm like, I need

462

:

three minutes to look at my phone, so

that I can just completely disassociate

463

:

with what's actually happening

464

:

Vive: And that's the

nervous system thing, right?

465

:

So the nervous system's flooded and

it's like, what can I do that is, and

466

:

it's so easy, it's so accessible, I can.

467

:

Check out in this way and then we

might get served something like was

468

:

talking about that's the algorithm

serves us something and then it's

469

:

like, Oh, I've checked out, but

then I've been served something

470

:

that's going to give me a feeling of

whatever that positive feeling is.

471

:

And of course, because we're not only

are we trying to check out from something

472

:

that's felt like it's too much and then we

get offered something that's going to make

473

:

us feel satisfied or like we've achieved

something or we ticked that off the list.

474

:

Oh, I got those shoes

that I was really wanting.

475

:

Oh, that will make me

feel like less bedraggled.

476

:

Hazel: I love the word bedraggled,

motherhood and bedraggled.

477

:

Vive: So bedraggled is

like my middle name.

478

:

Jacinta: I also wonder if when we were

talking about like the achievement,

479

:

like I've done something, I wonder if

that's an essence of like, like you go

480

:

to it for a distraction, but maybe you

find like a piece of info on there,

481

:

like someone telling you something

about nervous system regulation.

482

:

So you actually feel like, even though

I went on to institute, found something

483

:

that could be beneficial to me.

484

:

So it wasn't a total waste of time.

485

:

So it's like a mini achievement

486

:

Vive: I feel

487

:

Jacinta: to just.

488

:

Yeah.

489

:

Yes.

490

:

Yeah.

491

:

Yeah.

492

:

Vive: kids in that moment were too much.

493

:

And I'm like, Oh, I feel seen.

494

:

So that whole piece around that Hazel

talked about around really, it's tapping

495

:

into the desire to belong the desire, the,

496

:

Jacinta: Community.

497

:

Vive: the desire to be something

other than what we are right now.

498

:

So that aspirational identity stuff.

499

:

They're nailing it.

500

:

Hazel: And I love that thing that you

said, Jacinta, about it being like this

501

:

mystical, like, apparition of, what

we were searching for, because I think

502

:

there are a lot of people, myself

included, that, , look at the world

503

:

like that, and, you know, some might say

that's foolish, but I have gotten, so

504

:

far in my life, thinking, yep, things

are, like, coming to me in signs, , I

505

:

got this, and then, like you say, the

algorithm, serves you something, and

506

:

you're, like, ah, it's, like, Like,

yes, the universe is confirming my

507

:

desire for X, Y, Z or whatever it is.

508

:

And the way, because I'm still doing my

wardrobe freeze, the way that I've really

509

:

tried to, decouple that in my mind is

that like, I just say, this isn't for me.

510

:

Like this message from social media

or wherever it is, isn't for me.

511

:

This marketing message isn't for me

and I just kind of have tried to like

512

:

mentally shut that piece of my brain

down that's receptive and looking for

513

:

those pieces so that I can continue

with my wardrobe freeze and not

514

:

be distracted because because it's

so such an important goal for me.

515

:

Chryssius: A topic that's come up

recently is compulsive buying disorder

516

:

and how it overwhelmingly affects women.

517

:

Why do you think that is?

518

:

Jacinta: It's like still back to dopamine

and like seeking, some sort of reward

519

:

system and it's fleeting, like you're

just constantly chasing a temporary high.

520

:

It's temporary, it's short term, there's

nothing long term, they can't fathom

521

:

beyond, and I'd say, if I'm going to speak

to women specifically, the space I come

522

:

from, I feel like we're conditioned to

think about short term things like getting

523

:

married, having a wedding, and then

like kids, but my fear for women is like

524

:

retirement age and like, that's long term.

525

:

So it's further away from some and like.

526

:

Thinking about the planning for that.

527

:

That's not really a fun

thing to get a high from.

528

:

Like that's not instant.

529

:

And you're in a compulsive buying set,

you're not thinking of it, and I know

530

:

personally friends with older mothers

are in situations in their retirement

531

:

era and are not prepared because, I'm

not saying necessarily about compulsive

532

:

buying, but just like, it wasn't a

conditioning for us to think about

533

:

because , back to what I said in the

last episode, my princess theory, I

534

:

think we're just conditioned to think.

535

:

meet a man and then be like cared for

and that's not really, that changed

536

:

generationally from like our mothers

to like a millennial and we've all been

537

:

working most of our lives except for

if you pause career breaks for caring

538

:

and for children and things like that.

539

:

But think we're not

conditioned to think long term.

540

:

So like I think that feeds into

the compulsive buying because

541

:

temporary and I still think.

542

:

Like what I advocate for is empowering

women to understand how money

543

:

works, how it works for them.

544

:

Because I think the conditioning,

actually the old patriarchy and capitalism

545

:

is like, we didn't have to think about it.

546

:

And it was, it's not fun to think about,

and it's like, you'll be looked after.

547

:

But We were just kind of shown,

earning money is to have fun with it.

548

:

Travel, shop, have fun.

549

:

I don't think we were taught enough

about like the practical side.

550

:

And then again, like

generationally, if your mom stayed

551

:

at home, didn't earn an income.

552

:

didn't have super.

553

:

Maybe they, my parents

didn't even own a house.

554

:

So like, it's very it comes hard and fast.

555

:

Like the, when reality hits, when you

are just ill prepared for like the

556

:

realistic things you need, because

being able to buy outfits, can be

557

:

fun, but like, it's not a skill.

558

:

Like it's not gonna.

559

:

Yeah.

560

:

Yeah.

561

:

It's current.

562

:

That's what I mean.

563

:

Short term.

564

:

Yeah.

565

:

Vive: What I have come to understand is

that perhaps generationally, certainly

566

:

this has been my experience, this

very I noticed noticing an inability

567

:

to be in the gap between where I am

now and where I would like to be.

568

:

And if I can't tolerate being in that

gap, then I'm going to be looking

569

:

for ways to make being in that kind

of That space, that kind of liminal

570

:

space where I don't know, am I,

it's, oh, it's going to take work.

571

:

And oh my God, it looks so far away

where I want to be, which is, having

572

:

money for retirement or whatever it is.

573

:

How will I feel?

574

:

Okay.

575

:

Okay.

576

:

I'm going to, I'm more likely to do all

that impulsive buying, or there's going

577

:

to be things to try to make myself feel

good in the discomfort of getting there.

578

:

Jacinta: Yeah.

579

:

And like, yeah.

580

:

'cause you have to get, yeah.

581

:

Mm-Hmm.

582

:

Vive: You might liken it to

helping kids to be with frustration

583

:

in the learning process.

584

:

It's such a, it's such an important

point in learning, but it's a really

585

:

uncomfortable place to be and you said,

we've been encouraged to kind of enjoy

586

:

life, enjoy the moment, be in the moment.

587

:

Live for the now.

588

:

There's so many catchphrases

that you could look at like, it.

589

:

That don't encourage savoring,

like savoring what we have

590

:

cherishing what we have.

591

:

I had this memory as Hazel was

talking earlier about, When I was

592

:

16 and I was incredibly lucky.

593

:

I got the opportunity to go to a

trek through Nepal and we were in the

594

:

mountains of Nepal and I had just, I

remember very distinctly this moment

595

:

of seeing this family that were living

relative poverty, I suppose, I would

596

:

say, but they were radiant and they

had, this bowl that the mother was

597

:

drying I thought to myself, holy fuck.

598

:

We've got it all wrong Like look

599

:

Jacinta: mm

600

:

Vive: Radiant happy taking such care

of the few things that they have and

601

:

it's this moment that I've come back

to again and again when I find myself

602

:

going into consumer consumption mode.

603

:

It's like, at 16, I saw, I witnessed

someone with very little looking

604

:

incredibly content and taking care of

the, the small things that they had.

605

:

And it's it's quite a kind of

profound image that I've taken

606

:

with me through my whole life.

607

:

And come back to.

608

:

Chryssius: We're not

609

:

Vive: Just not taught to cherish

and There's no relationship.

610

:

That's another thing to consider.

611

:

So when we're buying, we actually

haven't developed a relationship with it.

612

:

So when you grow something from the and

then you get to eat it, it's like, fuck,

613

:

this is awesome because you've nurtured

it and you've been relating with it.

614

:

Or if you make your own, knit your

own jumper or you knit your own

615

:

socks, the sense of satisfaction

that you have when you pull those

616

:

socks on is something that is so

different to the sense of satisfaction.

617

:

I wouldn't even say you get

a sense of satisfaction when

618

:

you're doing the impulse buying.

619

:

Chryssius: There's a really good book,

I've not finished reading it yet.

620

:

I am making my way through it very

slowly by Tara Button and it's

621

:

called "A Life Less Throwaway".

622

:

And a lot of I've read so far

does focus on what you were saying

623

:

about cherishing what we own.

624

:

Vive: And just understanding that we're

not, we haven't learned to cherish

625

:

because it's been seen as like an

indulgent or uh, there's a fear.

626

:

Oh my hedonist who is

only seeking pleasure.

627

:

Or there's a lot of.

628

:

Fear around pleasure and

things being pleasurable?

629

:

Hazel: When things aren't made with

quality aren't made with care because

630

:

we have more like finance and money

in our society that when we're buying

631

:

something that doesn't cost that

much money, why should we value it?

632

:

Why should we care about it?

633

:

Why should we feel like it was an

achievement and feel like we should

634

:

have a connection to it and look

after it when it costs five dollars?

635

:

, the whole system is created

in a way that, like, why care?

636

:

Why care anyway?

637

:

Like, it's just so, it's really sad.

638

:

Chryssius: I'd really like to know

what are some practical tips or some

639

:

strategies for what we can do instead?

640

:

Charlie: Sit with the

feeling that you have.

641

:

Sit with the feeling and

look, look at what you have.

642

:

What is that garment?

643

:

What does it represent?

644

:

And why, why do I feel the need

to buy the mini leather skirt?

645

:

What's the feeling I'm looking for?

646

:

What's missing within me, or I

feel like's missing within me,

647

:

that's stopping me from being that?

648

:

And why do I want that so badly?

649

:

Because there's so many layers to

what we want and what we desire.

650

:

And when we look deep at what those are,

usually the answer is really simple.

651

:

It might be that a lot of the

time it tends to be confidence.

652

:

And that's the thing that these, that the

influencer market has really picked up on.

653

:

Is it's using, it's capitalizing

on people with confidence to sell

654

:

to people that lack confidence.

655

:

Because If you're miss if you're missing

that part of your self confidence,

656

:

that part of your own self worth, and

you see it on someone, and they're

657

:

also trying to sell you something, you

are so much more inclined to buy it.

658

:

So sit with yourself and say, what

do they have that I'm missing?

659

:

And how do I give it to myself without

it actually costing me anything?

660

:

chryssius_1_05-27-2024_165851:

Mm, that is such, such,

661

:

an interesting perspective because

I've never thought about it that way

662

:

in terms of the confidence aspect.

663

:

Mm.

664

:

Charlie: my biggest perspective on

that change, when I started seeing

665

:

some of the clothes we were being sold

and going, I don't even like that.

666

:

Like I, I'm not a fan of that

certain clothing garment, but that.

667

:

Girl that's wearing it just looks so cool.

668

:

But why do I want it?

669

:

Oh, I want how cool she looks.

670

:

I want her confidence.

671

:

So really, I could wear something

completely different that

672

:

feels more reflective of me.

673

:

But if I pretended for five minutes

that I was her, I bet it would look,

674

:

that skirt would look even better on me

because I've got the confidence to match.

675

:

I think we need to think more about

instead of buying a product, It's

676

:

stepping into a different level of

confidence and finding that within

677

:

ourselves first, which is hard.

678

:

It's easier said than done.

679

:

But if you're noticing a

pattern, figure out where you

680

:

can get that confidence from.

681

:

It can be in sitting down and trying

a new makeup tutorial within the

682

:

stuff you already have or cooking a

beautiful meal or stepping outside

683

:

or spending time with friends.

684

:

It can come from so many different places.

685

:

It doesn't have to come from a

click and an exchange of funds.

686

:

comes from inside and you have to want

it and you have to be ready to face that.

687

:

And you can

688

:

spend forever doing it and

finding it, but you've got to

689

:

really want to move it yourself.

690

:

Vive: I'm sure I said it last time, I

think one of the biggest things that

691

:

has helped me personally that as soon

as I get, an impulse to purchase.

692

:

And I use this and I say this

because I suffered from an

693

:

eating disorder for decades.

694

:

And I needed to slow down the urge to

binge and it's a, it feels, it's a similar

695

:

not the same kind of addiction when

we're going to do the impulse buying.

696

:

So for me it was always slowing

down and going, the feeling?

697

:

What's the feeling I'm having?

698

:

And what's the need?

699

:

What am I needing?

700

:

And even just giving myself,

asking myself those two questions.

701

:

There's some really wonderful resources

on the center of non, the center of

702

:

nonviolent communication around like

universal needs and also feelings when

703

:

our needs are not being met and feelings

when our needs are being met that, you can

704

:

print out and you can look at and you can

be like, how do I develop my nuance and

705

:

my language around feelings and needs so

I get a better sense of what is going on.

706

:

Chryssius: I think that's really valuable.

707

:

and also Jacinta, what you said

before about, taking those physical

708

:

steps, of, blocking the ads.

709

:

I know you said that you remove

the apps from your phone.

710

:

Did you have any specific recommendations

for apps or I know you mentioned

711

:

as well.

712

:

, tell that.

713

:

Jacinta: Well, I, just so people

can understand, like you have the

714

:

power to curate your feed, so I

just think it's really important to

715

:

understand you can block suggested ads.

716

:

You can block keywords if you're like

for things that you don't want to see.

717

:

And then I'd also say adding

on that, yeah, finding a list

718

:

of questions to ask yourself.

719

:

Do I need this?

720

:

Do I have something like this already?

721

:

Can I wear this on

rotation in my wardrobe?

722

:

Could I borrow it from someone

to see if I like it first?

723

:

And another thing in terms of slowing

down, like don't save your details

724

:

anywhere, your card details, because once

you have to, and we all know how annoying

725

:

it is, well I still do it, like I don't

have my details saved so I have to get up.

726

:

Get my wallet, still need to buy

tickets for things, but it's like

727

:

there's a there's like an effort.

728

:

I've got a timer.

729

:

I got to like, you have to slow down.

730

:

And so I think it helps,

like, I don't do the pay way.

731

:

I like to get the card out.

732

:

It just helps me physically

remember because otherwise it's

733

:

just, I'll just be spending more.

734

:

And that's like knowing yourself.

735

:

So knowing what helps you.

736

:

Is huge.

737

:

And then I'd also, I asked myself, like,

in terms of shopping, like, does this

738

:

impact my short and long term goals?

739

:

Because.

740

:

That's important.

741

:

And then also like, will

I remember this tomorrow?

742

:

Like, will I be thinking about

this tomorrow, next week,

743

:

or next month, or next year?

744

:

And then also like, crucial

is, what am I feeling?

745

:

And when was the last

time I felt like this?

746

:

, maybe it's not even related

to necessarily shopping.

747

:

Like, it could be another time.

748

:

And then what, like speaking

to nervous system regulation,

749

:

like, what can I do to regulate?

750

:

And then a huge one is your whole

outfit, you could just change your

751

:

hair, because you can put something

else on it when you have new hairdo.

752

:

Everything looks new, so

that's a bonus, I think.

753

:

Chryssius: that.

754

:

Hazel: My work is all around working

with women to get them to a place

755

:

where they have more wardrobe

satisfaction with what they already own.

756

:

So in , the time that I've been doing

my wardrobe freeze, so it's almost 260

757

:

days now, what I've realized is that

for me, the dopamine gets ignited

758

:

in my brain when I find a new outfit

combination, as opposed to buying

759

:

something new when I find another like

absolutely banging outfit combination

760

:

in the wardrobe that I already have.

761

:

It gives me so much joy and so much

satisfaction and working with other women

762

:

to help them achieve those kind of like

fuck yes moments with stuff that they've

763

:

already spent time money and energy on.

764

:

Is really like it feels really powerful

and also just being authentic to

765

:

yourself like wearing what you want

to wear regardless of what the outside

766

:

world is telling you Gives you A

feeling of authenticity and comfort

767

:

over any trend could ever give you and

it also gives other people and other

768

:

women the permission to do the same.

769

:

The more you are yourself truly and in

every way that you can be, the more we

770

:

can let go of needing to be on trend,

needing that to make us feel worthy

771

:

and just be worthy because we are.

772

:

Chryssius: In line with that, but

along the lines of that authenticity

773

:

piece, dressing for our own authentic

selves and, wearing what we like,

774

:

not what fast fashion and social

media is telling us we should like.

775

:

I think that is super challenging

for, probably, a lot of us, a lot

776

:

of us find that really challenging is

knowing who we even are to start with.

777

:

Vive: visually, and even in your day

to day life with the Should what I

778

:

should look like or be or do or have.

779

:

It's a real flip like to figure out to

to slow down, to allow who you are to

780

:

emerge, which is the natural way of life

and life cycles versus this, I think it

781

:

comes back to productivity and linear

progress and outcomes and efficiency

782

:

things are all of capitalism and

of the patriarchy and emergence

783

:

and and letting things come

and come from within naturally.

784

:

They're not things that

are valued in the current.

785

:

Chryssius: No.

786

:

, Hazel: And I think, in the work that

I do, I talk about, , you know, the

787

:

heroine pieces within people's wardrobes,

women's wardrobes, and they're the

788

:

pieces that make us feel amazing.

789

:

ones that make us feel powerful, the ones

that make us feel like we are, the outward

790

:

embodiment of who we really are inside.

791

:

And what I found with working with all

these different women is that those pieces

792

:

really hang in our wardrobes the most.

793

:

So we don't wear them and it's like,

do we need the permission to wear them?

794

:

Because I feel like the heroine pieces

in our wardrobes and we all know what

795

:

they are without even thinking, like

I'm saying the words to you and you

796

:

thinking, yep, it's that, that, that,

and that, and it's like, we don't

797

:

wear them, why why don't we wear them?

798

:

They're the ones that

make us feel the best.

799

:

Let's flip

800

:

the hierarchy.

801

:

Yes!

802

:

Vive: right?

803

:

I think that's the thing is that

they're this wonderful piece

804

:

that reflects a part of ourselves

that we love and we really honor.

805

:

And that makes us feel very enlivened

and alive, but also I think we talked

806

:

about that whole visibility piece is that.

807

:

It's also, probably have patterns from

childhood and just from lived experience

808

:

where stepping into the authenticity

meant we had to make a choice between

809

:

being authentic and belonging and

probably more often than not for safety.

810

:

And we chose belonging.

811

:

So, as we, As are encouraged

to be authentic, we're also.

812

:

it's not talked about how to

find safety in being authentic.

813

:

.

That's why

814

:

those incredible pieces and you don't

wear them every day because there's,

815

:

it's almost like, Oh, only when I

feel bold enough, can I put that on?

816

:

Hazel: But, in fashion psychology,

there's so much that says, dress

817

:

for the job you want, not the

job you have, kind of mentality.

818

:

Like, when we wear them, they

make us feel that way as well.

819

:

So, sometimes it is, and I really hate

this phrase, but like the fake it till you

820

:

make it, putting those items on is going

to give us more satisfaction overall with

821

:

our wardrobes and help us to buy less

because we are feeling like what we are

822

:

wearing is aligned with who we are and I

absolutely understand where you're coming

823

:

from in that kind of like That fear piece.

824

:

Cause obviously I feel it too.

825

:

And my clients feel it and we, as women

feel it, but it's like, in order to try

826

:

and flip this patriarchy to a matriarchy,

which is what needs to happen to save

827

:

the planet in my opinion, like we need

to start showing up like that with like,

828

:

with the fear, but just like, fuck it,

I'm going to do it anyway, because like I

829

:

said, if I do it, someone else can do it.

830

:

Vive: So I think it's finding

those ways to step into

831

:

authenticity and be with the fear.

832

:

Without suppressing it it

away or pushing through it.

833

:

And I think that's the pivotal change

piece is like, well, how do I be

834

:

authentic and also fear to be there?

835

:

Because if we suppress it,

it's just going to come back.

836

:

It's in some

837

:

How do we find that way?

838

:

And, there are various tools out there.

839

:

So it's this sort of having the self

compassion and having the grounded

840

:

confidence at the same time to step

into those wearing those pieces.

841

:

And I think that's the work of women.

842

:

For women stepping

843

:

this change.

844

:

Like you said, Hazel.

845

:

I

846

:

Hazel: And I love that you're

here, Veev, to bring the nuance

847

:

to my just sweeping statements.

848

:

Like, I love that because I was like,

this is how I feel inside, but it's not.

849

:

It's so much more nuanced than that.

850

:

So thank you.

851

:

Vive: my pleasure.

852

:

Jacinta: Yeah.

853

:

And the, yeah, the same thing,

like when I work with clients,

854

:

it's like the feeling they have.

855

:

So if they're like fearful and then I ask

them what do they want to feel it instead?

856

:

Like what's like the opposite.

857

:

And then we like work on like a small

significant step to sort of that pattern.

858

:

Because it's an everyday exercise and

it's not just like, in consumption,

859

:

it's anything like I've talked to

people about, if you're worried about

860

:

negotiating, like practice negotiating.

861

:

So you can practice like

the opposite of your fear

862

:

Vive: really small ways.

863

:

And that's the, that has been the piece

864

:

Jacinta: Yeah.

865

:

Yeah.

866

:

Vive: difference is it's not

a big grand gesture of like

867

:

some snakes or something crazy.

868

:

But it's, it's what is the just

noticeable difference that you could make?

869

:

And I feel like this with purchasing or

with anything else, it's like, what is

870

:

the smallest, like coming back to that

ease sense of ease, what is the smallest

871

:

difference or smallest change that you

could make that almost feels effortless?

872

:

And you're like, that's not enough.

873

:

I haven't done enough of a change.

874

:

And it's building on those

really micro kind of actions.

875

:

And then you look back in

you're like, Holy fuck, I've

876

:

completely changed how I shop.

877

:

Jacinta: Because that's, that's

what it is, like, you're compounding

878

:

the experience, but that's what

it is with your finances you're

879

:

actually, , exercising a muscle.

880

:

Because moving , a dollar to

a savings account is progress.

881

:

You're exercising something like you're

automating, you're doing it for you.

882

:

You have a goal.

883

:

It's not the amount.

884

:

It doesn't have to be like

a million dollars in a year.

885

:

It's like these little steps.

886

:

Cause the time is going to pass anyway.

887

:

And a little step in, if you're

talking about a fashion is just like,

888

:

wearing the earrings that you have.

889

:

It doesn't, yeah, it doesn't

have to be a macro thing.

890

:

It's micro, like little

891

:

Not like everything we listed.

892

:

That's unrealistic.

893

:

Hazel: also, Like,

894

:

The research shows that, like,

with people suffering from things

895

:

like compulsive buying disorder,

having a small setback actually

896

:

makes them just give up completely.

897

:

So, Having those tiny, small, tangible

steps can help in that, like, pull

898

:

and shove of, of, oh, I fucked

up so I can't possibly go on now.

899

:

Vive: it's, it all or nothing mentality.

900

:

And also the, the goal setting

stuff that's like set the big goal.

901

:

It's I've always found that kind of

goal setting completely paralyzing.

902

:

And I've never, ever

successfully executed that.

903

:

Jacinta: Yeah.

904

:

Vive: There's a wonderful author

called Oliver Berkman who wrote 4,

905

:

000 weeks time management for mortals.

906

:

And he wrote an article about friend

saying to him, Oh, you're not still

907

:

thinking that you're going to arrive.

908

:

right?

909

:

And it's this sense that we live,

not in the moment, but in longing

910

:

for when we're going to arrive and

actually dropping this idea that

911

:

we're ever going to arrive anywhere.

912

:

And even if we did arrive where we

wanted to arrive, we'd be looking

913

:

for the next place to arrive at.

914

:

, it's so important because we're living

only now we're not living in the future.

915

:

We're not living in the past.

916

:

We're only living in the now and we

make, we wish away so much of the

917

:

now with the big aspirational goals.

918

:

Hazel: I love that.

919

:

It's that feeling of like, when I'm

different, like in six months when

920

:

I'm a different human, not the one

921

:

Vive: the arrival.

922

:

Yep.

923

:

Hazel: going to be this completely

924

:

Vive: when I arrive at the 10 kilos

lighter, when I arrive at the looking

925

:

glamorous, cause I've purchased

all of these clothes, it's like,

926

:

no matter wherever you go, you're

still going to be there with those

927

:

and

928

:

Hazel: It's just you.

929

:

Chryssius: And that's a wrap for part two.

930

:

.

Once again, a huge thank you to our amazing panelists.

931

:

For our listeners, make sure to mark your

calendars for the final episode in this

932

:

series, which is coming out on Friday.

933

:

We'll be exploring the question,

"Why do we keep outsourcing our

934

:

style to fast fashion instead of

focusing on what we already have?"

935

:

It's a big question and it will

provide valuable insights into your

936

:

relationship with clothing and style.

937

:

We'll see you then.

Show artwork for Reloved Radio: Sustainable Fashion Stories

About the Podcast

Reloved Radio: Sustainable Fashion Stories
Be inspired by the individuals who are not only transforming wardrobes but also paving the way for a planet-friendly fashion revolution. Tune in every second Tuesday to discover how these incredible stories of secondhand style, sustainable fashion, upcycling, rewearing and reselling are reshaping the narrative of our closets... and, in turn, our world.

About your host

Profile picture for Chryssius Dunn

Chryssius Dunn

Wife. Mother. Op-shops. Re-wearing. Anti-fast fashion. Decaf coffee. Cat videos. Train surfing. Nude skydiving. What? Oh, I was just listing words.